The Case For Heaven | Lee Strobel

Award-winning and best-selling author, Lee Strobel, joins me for one of my final interviews.  It is fitting to talk about the end of life at this time, as I want listeners to remember what's most important in your life as you live it.  This conversation really impacted me.  I hope it impacts you too. 

See the trailer and watch The Case For Heaven Movie in a theatre near you April 4-6, 2022.

Get the Why Believe in Heaven? Booklet Lee mentions in our conversation for 99 cents (while supplies last).

For a complete transcript of this interview, visit my transcripts page on EricNordhoff.com.

Transcript

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Eric Nordhoff: Lee strobel Thank you so much for coming on the courage cast it's a blessing to have you.

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Lee Strobel: appreciate that Eric great to be with you.

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Eric Nordhoff: yeah this is was it is kind of a dream come true, for me, because I have been a case for Christ, and the case for series has been a big part of my reading pleasure over the years, as a new Christian so.

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Eric Nordhoff: yeah yeah.

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Lee Strobel: appreciate I love hearing that you know you sit in your little office pecking away at a computer and pray that's Monday, may God may use it for good great.

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Lee Strobel: On the other end.

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Eric Nordhoff: Well, I, like you, you know you explored your faith at age 29 really to try to prove it wrong I explored my faith at age 23 really but, but as a result of a bunch of seed planting and came to Christ at age 23 what's it like for you now, after all of these years.

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Eric Nordhoff: Being a follower of Christ.

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Eric Nordhoff: Do you find yourself being able to relate to those people who may be grew up in the church and came to Christ at an early age, or do you find that to be unique for you, because you, you had such a different upbringing.

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Lee Strobel: Well, I I celebrate everybody that comes to faith and seeing now my grandchildren come to faith, one by one.

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Lee Strobel: and Christian families and great churches and wonderful youth ministries and.

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Lee Strobel: To see them come alive in their faith and to see my granddaughter abigail's Bible all marked up and underlined and notes in the margins and and and to see her enthusiasm for her relationship with with God to see you're going mission trips to see here.

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Lee Strobel: I have a photograph that somebody took of her praying with another girl to receive Christ and.

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Lee Strobel: The great joy is a grandfather, so you know I know some people like me, are hard headed and took me, you know, three decades to come to faith but I celebrate those especially that came at a younger age, because they avoided all of the.

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Lee Strobel: Not all but much of the sin that I committed during my life when I lived as an atheist that I regret, in fact, one person that came to faith partially through my book is evil knievel the.

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Lee Strobel: Really yeah.

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Lee Strobel: yeah the daredevil motorcyclists and he and I became friends before he died and his biggest regret was not coming to faith as a youngster.

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Lee Strobel: Because he said I could live my life differently, I could I could live my life for God and and look what I did, and I kept telling him Robert you know god's going to use your your story to reach people who, you may not otherwise have been able to reach but.

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Lee Strobel: But he saw how wonderful it would have been to come to faith as a youngster and had the opportunity to live in entire life devoted to God.

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Eric Nordhoff: um well speaking of life we're talking today about I guess death and what happens after we die.

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Eric Nordhoff: yeah you have a movie coming out the first that I think you've ever put out in the case series of course you had the case for Christ, the movie which was really well done and and really inspiring.

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Eric Nordhoff: For me as well, but.

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Eric Nordhoff: Now we have this upcoming fathom event that's going to be happening really just before Easter.

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Eric Nordhoff: So a timely event the case for heaven.

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Eric Nordhoff: is going to be releasing Monday April 4 through Wednesday April 6 people can catch that locally, wherever they are in theaters in a theater near you tell us about the case for having the book and and then, of course, also this documentary.

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Eric Nordhoff: sort of the the making of it and the inspiration for it is because you're you're kind of getting on, in your life that you're considering this or what what was sort of the the instigator for it.

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Lee Strobel: Well, what started was an incident that happened to me about 10 years ago when I almost died.

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Lee Strobel: My wife on the unconscious called an ambulance I woke up in the emergency room and the doctor looked down at me and said you're one step away from a coma two steps away from die.

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Lee Strobel: And then I went unconscious again, I had a unusual medical condition called Hypo night tree MIA, which is a severe drop in my blood sodium level.

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Lee Strobel: So I hover between life and death for quite a while, and so the doctors were able to save my life in a very delicate maneuver that they had to do to save me and I tell you what that is a very clarifying experience to almost die.

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Lee Strobel: Because when you're in that situation, nothing is more important than what happens when we close eyes for the last time in this world.

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Lee Strobel: And so I was a Christian at the time, I believe what the Bible teaches about the afterlife but at the same time i've still got that skeptical gear, you know my.

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Lee Strobel: backgrounds in journalism and law and I tend to want evidence and reasons and answers, and so I launched on this investigation to try to look at what is the evidence that indeed, we continue to live on after our physical death.

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Eric Nordhoff: Well it's one of those things that i've always considered, and I think most of the human race it's it's the great mystery.

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Eric Nordhoff: Right, how can we find evidence I you know I, I find it really intriguing and you as an investigative journalist and your background and doing that.

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Eric Nordhoff: How did you go now obviously there's a lot of things mentioned in scripture about heaven and hell and what happens after we die, and of course it's it's the great mystery so but, but you relied on a lot more than that to begin to build a case for heaven right yes.

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Lee Strobel: Right, you know the Apostle Paul said to be absent from the bodies to be present, with the Lord so there's really two aspects in Christian teaching to the afterlife The first is the intermediate state.

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Lee Strobel: That happens when we die our our our soul our spirit separates from our body and we're conscious and present either in the presence of God or a believer or separated from him and hades.

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Lee Strobel: The second stage happens at the consummation of history when Jesus returns it's when we're united with our now resurrected bodies.

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Lee Strobel: When we go through final judgment and then we spend eternity in a very physical place, whether it's heaven or hell, so I wanted to know what wait a minute.

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Lee Strobel: If the Bible says as that our spirit our consciousness, separate from our physical body at debt and continue to live on, is there any evidence.

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Lee Strobel: Outside the Bible for that, and so I began to investigate what are known as near death experiences, where people are clinically dead.

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Lee Strobel: And yet they report seeing things are hearing things that they could not have otherwise seen or her if they didn't authentically have an out of body experience.

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Lee Strobel: And so I looked at those cases where we have corroboration so, for instance, there was a woman named Maria who died in the hospital.

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Lee Strobel: And she described lady said no, I was conscious the whole time she said, my spirit separated from my body I kind of floated around the ceiling of the hospital.

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Lee Strobel: room I watched the resuscitation efforts on my on my body and then my spirit floated up and out of the hospital and when she was revived she said Oh, by the way, there's a man's tennis shoe on the roof of the hospital.

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Lee Strobel: And it's blue it's left footed there's a little were over the little toe and the shoelaces tucked under the heel so they go up to the roof, and they find it exactly she's tried it.

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Eric Nordhoff: This is.

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Lee Strobel: example of the kind of collaboration that indicates that indeed our consciousness does survive at least our clinical death.

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Lee Strobel: In one study they looked at 21 blind people, half of them blind since birth and yet during this near death experiences out of body experience they were able to see many of them, for the first time.

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Lee Strobel: And so they watched as a resuscitation efforts were going on in their bodies, they.

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Lee Strobel: They they they saw plants and animals for the first time and then, when they were ultimately revived their blindness returned and it's one researcher said, this is medically impossible.

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Lee Strobel: I mean this is part of 900 scholarly articles published in a scientific and medical journals over the last 50 years on this topic.

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Lee Strobel: Even the Lancet, which is the famous Medical Journal in England.

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Lee Strobel: carried an analysis to show that none of the alternative explanations for near death experiences can fully account for this phenomenon so.

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Lee Strobel: This is a well researched area of science and clearly, I think it shows at a minimum that our consciousness does continue to live on, but what's interesting, especially to me.

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Lee Strobel: Is I interviewed for the movie and in my book john Burke john is a pastor of a Christian church in Santa in.

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Lee Strobel: Austin Texas, and he studied 1000 near death experiences over 30 years.

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Lee Strobel: And what he learned is, if you look at the commonality of what typically takes place in a near death experience not how people interpret it through their religious lens or their cultural lens but what actually takes place, it is consistent with Christian theology.

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Eric Nordhoff: And he.

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Lee Strobel: acts as a verse by verse.

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Lee Strobel: So that that's a powerful finding so to me that is external.

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Lee Strobel: corroboration of what the Bible teaches about the afterlife that indeed our consciousness does continue to live on.

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hmm.

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Eric Nordhoff: yeah it's very hope hope giving.

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Eric Nordhoff: To me to hear these stories, obviously.

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Eric Nordhoff: There are those.

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Eric Nordhoff: that a lot of them more on the progressive left side that will even argue that there even is a hell.

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Eric Nordhoff: yeah i'm curious if you dove into that in your research or.

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Eric Nordhoff: kind of.

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Eric Nordhoff: yeah countered some of those arguments and maybe that's a future book, I have no idea but i'm just curious if you have any thoughts on I know this was not really what the book is about, but if you're going to.

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Eric Nordhoff: Talk about heaven and hell, I would think.

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Lee Strobel: No i've into that.

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Lee Strobel: I delve into that in the book, I have two chapters on hell, and I look at two popular.

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Lee Strobel: Trends one is called annihilation ISM, which is the belief that, when a non believer they're essentially snuffed out of existence.

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Lee Strobel: john stott the famous evangelical leader of the 20th century came to believe in annihilation ISM before he died it's not a heretical position I don't think it's fair, I think you can make a really good case for annihilation ISM.

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Lee Strobel: And I don't think it's a convincing ultimately case.

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Eric Nordhoff: it's not.

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Lee Strobel: A radical position as a secondary issue but I, you can make a good case but to me it fall short night demonstrate that in the book.

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Lee Strobel: The other popular trend is universalist which is we all ultimately you're saved.

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Lee Strobel: And to me that is a heretical position it's not well supported in scripture it is disputed in many passages of scripture.

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Lee Strobel: And so I don't believe in that, but I did present that case as best I could for universalism and then said why I don't i'm not convinced personally that it's true so I tried to look at.

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Lee Strobel: The issue of health in the movie we actually interview, one of the 23% of people who have a near death experience, where they have a hellish experience.

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Lee Strobel: Not me has a great experience we interview Howard storm, who was an atheist, who, who, in a sense, what the hell when he died, and he describes it as being the most horrific experience that you can possibly imagine said no horror film can even approach.

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Lee Strobel: The horror of it all and in the midst of it, he called out to Jesus.

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Lee Strobel: Was rescued, and after he was ultimately revived he not only renounces atheism he not only resigned his tenure position at a secular university, but he became a Christian and an ordained pastor.

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Lee Strobel: and is now pastor of a little girl church.

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Lee Strobel: In transformed his life, so I think I think I think the best news about heaven, is it is it it's real I think the worst news about hell is that it's real.

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Lee Strobel: And I think the greatest news of all is that.

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Lee Strobel: Jesus is open the door to have any flung open the door to heaven to anyone anywhere in any culture, it comes to him in repentance and faith.

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Eric Nordhoff: yeah it is, it is really, really good news i'm so grateful for that.

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Eric Nordhoff: So in this in this documentary there are maybe I think nine or 10 different interviews or people featured maybe more than that, but tell me a little bit about and are there any other unique stories that we should be watching.

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For.

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Lee Strobel: You know there's one fascinating one that was my favorite and that was an interview I did for my book with Luis Palau.

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Lee Strobel: Luis Palau one of the great evangelists of history, he shared his faith with a billion people during his lifetime, he was a friend of mine.

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Lee Strobel: And a hero of mine, and he was dying of stage four cancer, he knew he was going to die soon, and so I went out to Oregon I spent a day with him and his wife, and it was the last formal interview with him before he died and.

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Lee Strobel: So we were going to come back and shoot the video for the movie but he died in the interim, and so in the film you hear his voice I we play the tape of some of his observations and what he was saying, as someone who knew that he was about to pass over into the next slide.

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Lee Strobel: But we don't have him on camera because he ultimately died beforehand.

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Lee Strobel: But one of the things he said that I will never ever forget, and I think it's relevant for every follower of Jesus, on the face of the planet.

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Lee Strobel: He looked at me before he died, sadly, when you get to the end of your life and all is said and done, you will never regret being courageous for Christ.

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Lee Strobel: And I thought wow that's powerful I mean I think being courageous for Christ means different things to different people, I think, for some people, it might be to say.

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Lee Strobel: Who am I going to invite what non Christian, am I going to invite to come with me to see this film The case for heaven because i'm telling you, it is a film that non believers will.

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Lee Strobel: resonate with we have a non believer in the film a guy who renounced his Christian faith and he talks candidly about why he no longer bullies and what the Bible teaches we have all viewpoints represented, but I think that.

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Lee Strobel: The film presents a cogent a compelling and a convincing case for the truth of the Christian teaching about the afterlife so you know.

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Lee Strobel: A form of courage might be, who I might want to take a risk and invite.

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Lee Strobel: To come with me to see the film or to give them a copy of the book or I even created a little booklet 64 page kind of summary of the book called why believe in heaven, you can only get it at Christian book calm, but you get them for a buck.

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Lee Strobel: And I went online I just.

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Lee Strobel: Literally bought 1800 copies of that.

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Lee Strobel: Because i'm going to give one to every student at Colorado Christian university next week, when I speak at Chapel yeah take a risk and give it out to someone who's not a believer.

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Eric Nordhoff: yeah I love that and I love the quote from louie.

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Lee Strobel: Plans yet powerful.

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Eric Nordhoff: you'll never regret being courageous for Christ yeah yeah yeah.

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Eric Nordhoff: Well that's that's the name of our podcast you, as you know, the courage cast.

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Eric Nordhoff: And the the founding inspiration was the book that was written about the you know the top five regrets of the dying right.

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Eric Nordhoff: I don't know if you've ever read that book or heard about the article and and.

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Eric Nordhoff: And so it's it's really profound that he said that.

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Eric Nordhoff: And, and I hope that our listeners, who will be inspired by this will will pick up their faith in in that way.

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Eric Nordhoff: So is there anything in the remaining couple of minutes that we have together is there anything.

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Eric Nordhoff: That you're still not sure about i'm sensing that at the end of this journey at the end of the book and probably the movie the case for Christ, the case for heaven is so strong that you're you're you're pretty sure, but is there anything that you're still not sure about.

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Eric Nordhoff: Well, serious.

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Lee Strobel: let's be honest, nobody wants to go through the process of dying.

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Lee Strobel: yeah process it's my mom, who was a strong believer went through about with cancer that was very difficult before she passed Jesus helped her through that and he promises to do that, to be with us, but nobody wants to go through that, and you know we don't want to leave behind loved ones.

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Lee Strobel: So let's be honest about that and and bring that to God and say i'm wrestling with this helped me to get through this and Jesus will answer that prayer.

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So.

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Lee Strobel: But that's reality that's reality it's it's nobody wants to go through that process itself even Jesus in the garden 70 said, you know if it's possible take this cup from me.

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Lee Strobel: yeah so but that's alright, because I think the evidence for the afterlife is so powerful and so persuasive that it's almost like having a vacation on the calendar.

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Lee Strobel: Now you know if you're at work and things are hiring your bosses breathing down your neck you got all this work to do and project deadlines.

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Lee Strobel: But if you've got a vacation on your calendar two months from now, and you're going to go to maui for three weeks it helps you get through the President difficulties.

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Lee Strobel: And when you're a follower of Christ and you've got heaven on your calendar.

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Eric Nordhoff: You don't know where eternity.

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Lee Strobel: for eternity it's going to come it's it helps you deal with the current difficulties of life because you're saying I know this is our God, I need your help, but in the meantime I know this eternity is coming, and then that gives me courage for the President.

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Eric Nordhoff: i'm reading a book right now called the rest of the Gospel and in there, it talks about the two parts one is obviously salvation we get that right, but we don't get the living part right living now.

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Eric Nordhoff: With the understanding of the Gospel maybe, what is it what would you say in one minute or so that we have left, would you say is the.

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Eric Nordhoff: The recipe for living life now, knowing that we have heaven to look forward to is.

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Eric Nordhoff: is having here now.

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Lee Strobel: Jesus said in Matthew Chapter five in the great sermon of history, the sermon on the Mount he said I want you to be to live lives are like salt and light light.

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Lee Strobel: and other words like salt and make people thirst for God light the light that shine god's message of hope and grace and love and justice and eternal life that shine that message in the dark.

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Lee Strobel: Areas of despair.

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Lee Strobel: And what I would encourage all of us to add, is the question how can I be stronger salt and brighter light with my life in the days that I have remaining.

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Lee Strobel: that's my prayer that God would use me more powerfully to tell other people this good news that there is hope there is redemption there's a party waiting for them in heaven, the door is open.

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Lee Strobel: yeah walk through.

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Lee Strobel: Because of what Jesus has done for us.

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Eric Nordhoff: yeah well.

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Eric Nordhoff: Lee strobel best selling author ord winning author of the case for series the case for heaven movie you can find all about it.

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Eric Nordhoff: The the fathom events you'll learn more about that at the case for heaven movie calm and i'll put all the relevant links that you mentioned today in our podcast interview Thank you so much for taking time with the courageous Community today.

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Lee Strobel: I appreciate that thanks so much for having.